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huckmubb
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[*] posted on 9-5-2012 at 09:24 AM
1995 Tercel pinging and cutting out


95 Tercel - Distributor-less engine w/coil packs/Auto trans/5EFE/all stock.

I have never experienced this problem with any car. It pings, even with 92 octane, and sometimes the engine cuts off while accelerating, and the car jolts, but keeps on going. It only happens when I am accelerating. It feels like the spark or fuel completely shuts off and then kicks back on, the car shutters, but keeps on going. It only does this once in awhile, and only when I am almost full throttle.

- Bad computer?
- Bad fuel pump?
- Bad spark module?
- Bad coil?

???

I was going to just start replacing things until it goes away, but wanted to know if anyone has heard of the 5EFE having problems?

:icon help:




93 Tercel. 3E-E stock block, crank, rod, pistons, with 5EFE Paseo 1st Gen Head, 0.019" stainless steel shim head gasket, 8.8:1 compression, IHI Turbocharger, model RHB5 VJ5 from Mazda GLX. 8 PSI boost. Supra 295cc Low Impedence yellow top ultra fast injectors, Home soldered Megasquirt I, Version 3.0 PCB stand alone fuel and spark management. Saab turbo spark module, stock Tercel coil, stock 5EFE distributor. 10mm stainless steel core silicone plug wires, 15" Montegi R116 wheels, Intercooled, Custom high flow 2 1/4" sink trap turbo manifold, custom 2 1/4" welded down pipe with separate wastegate pipe. 2 1/4" exhaust system with solid steel flowmaster muffler. Estimated 170HP at 6600 RPM. http://www.ritalie.com/tercel
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[*] posted on 9-5-2012 at 09:42 AM


What was your last maintenance?




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[*] posted on 9-5-2012 at 10:25 AM


Quote: Originally posted by huckmubb  
95 Tercel - Distributor-less engine w/coil packs/Auto trans/5EFE/all stock.

I have never experienced this problem with any car. It pings, even with 92 octane, and sometimes the engine cuts off while accelerating, and the car jolts, but keeps on going. It only happens when I am accelerating. It feels like the spark or fuel completely shuts off and then kicks back on, the car shutters, but keeps on going. It only does this once in awhile, and only when I am almost full throttle.

- Bad computer?
- Bad fuel pump?
- Bad spark module?
- Bad coil?

???

I was going to just start replacing things until it goes away, but wanted to know if anyone has heard of the 5EFE having problems?

:icon help:


Not a lot to go on here. But I would check all your ignition components: good spark on all 4?, condition of plugs?. Then if that checks out, check/adjust the timing. If you have a fuel pressure gauge, that would be my next check after confirming the ignition is doing what it should. You could do all of this for very cheap before replacing expensive components blindly.

:twocents:

[Edited on 5-9-2012 by ChakaRaka]




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[*] posted on 9-5-2012 at 11:21 AM


Check if the plug wires are firing properly. You may have a coil that's going bad.



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[*] posted on 9-5-2012 at 12:30 PM


How do you know it is pinging? What do you mean by pinging? Knock or just some weird rattling noise?
I had an issue with my DIS where one of the coil packs went bad. Only on occasion would it act up, but the car would actually sputter and lose alot of momentum under throttle and even occasionally just flat out shut off.




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[*] posted on 9-5-2012 at 01:42 PM


My MR2 had similar symptoms from a bad knock sensor




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huckmubb
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[*] posted on 15-5-2012 at 03:16 PM


Well I removed my spark plugs. All the plugs were very faint tan, grey colored like normal, except number #3 cylinder was noticeably white with heavy white deposits, and speckles from detonation, no tan or black deposits. It looked much brighter and leaner than the other 3 cylinders. I've never seen this happen on any engine before.

I am leaning towards bad computer, as the engine cuts out momentarily sometimes as if you killed power to the whole ECU all at once. It's not a misfire, it's a heavy jolt, similar to hitting the key on and off.





93 Tercel. 3E-E stock block, crank, rod, pistons, with 5EFE Paseo 1st Gen Head, 0.019" stainless steel shim head gasket, 8.8:1 compression, IHI Turbocharger, model RHB5 VJ5 from Mazda GLX. 8 PSI boost. Supra 295cc Low Impedence yellow top ultra fast injectors, Home soldered Megasquirt I, Version 3.0 PCB stand alone fuel and spark management. Saab turbo spark module, stock Tercel coil, stock 5EFE distributor. 10mm stainless steel core silicone plug wires, 15" Montegi R116 wheels, Intercooled, Custom high flow 2 1/4" sink trap turbo manifold, custom 2 1/4" welded down pipe with separate wastegate pipe. 2 1/4" exhaust system with solid steel flowmaster muffler. Estimated 170HP at 6600 RPM. http://www.ritalie.com/tercel
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[*] posted on 15-5-2012 at 03:30 PM


Also, if I understand correctly, the 5EFE on the 1995, with no distributor, has NON adjustable timing, correct? If I could change the timing, a little retard would fix the ping! ha.



93 Tercel. 3E-E stock block, crank, rod, pistons, with 5EFE Paseo 1st Gen Head, 0.019" stainless steel shim head gasket, 8.8:1 compression, IHI Turbocharger, model RHB5 VJ5 from Mazda GLX. 8 PSI boost. Supra 295cc Low Impedence yellow top ultra fast injectors, Home soldered Megasquirt I, Version 3.0 PCB stand alone fuel and spark management. Saab turbo spark module, stock Tercel coil, stock 5EFE distributor. 10mm stainless steel core silicone plug wires, 15" Montegi R116 wheels, Intercooled, Custom high flow 2 1/4" sink trap turbo manifold, custom 2 1/4" welded down pipe with separate wastegate pipe. 2 1/4" exhaust system with solid steel flowmaster muffler. Estimated 170HP at 6600 RPM. http://www.ritalie.com/tercel
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[*] posted on 15-5-2012 at 03:39 PM


:pics2:

Maybe a blown head gasket?

Any smoke?

Bubble into your overflow tank?





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[*] posted on 15-5-2012 at 03:43 PM


Quote: Originally posted by huckmubb  
Well I removed my spark plugs. All the plugs were very faint tan, grey colored like normal, except number #3 cylinder was noticeably white with heavy white deposits, and speckles from detonation, no tan or black deposits. It looked much brighter and leaner than the other 3 cylinders. I've never seen this happen on any engine before.

I am leaning towards bad computer, as the engine cuts out momentarily sometimes as if you killed power to the whole ECU all at once. It's not a misfire, it's a heavy jolt, similar to hitting the key on and off.



if its a 95 i'd rule out the ecu for right now and check the injector/injector o rings on the bad cylinder.

95-96 have bank fire so if it was an ecu problem, then cylinder #1 (which shares the same injector channel/driver as #3) would also show lean imo.

if it was a 97 + (which was the first year of sequential injection on these cars), then i'd be inclined to believe ecu. :twocents:




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[*] posted on 16-5-2012 at 11:55 AM


Thanks guys.

And special thanks to GT_Revva, glad to see you are still here! Your knowledge of Tercel wiring saved my entire turbo tercel project on my other Tercel! I will try not to be stubborn this time and listen to you.

1.) This is a hot only problem. When cold the car runs smooth and powerful, no ping.

2.) When hot the engine runs smooth, but pings, shuts off momentarily, and has low power, even with 92 octane fuel.

3.) Installing new spark plugs didn't change anything, and the new plugs (I checked #2 & #3) are crystal clear like new, not a spec of tan or black on them after idling 10 minutes, then running for 15 miles (obviously VERY lean).

4.) This is a partial throttle problem. Above 80% throttle, the ping goes away, but the car still shuts on and off briefly sometimes. I can feel a strong jolt, like someone kills power to the ECU. This same effect happens on my other car with Megasquirt when I burn something to the ROM while driving (not recommended)!

I get the feeling my car isn't getting enough fuel, it's pretty obvious. So how do I get more fuel?

The shutting off momentarily makes me think it's a bad ECU. It has new plug wires, new coil plug boots, new spark plugs. Can't imagine why it would momentarily jolt unless the ECU is powering down or one of the coils is bad?

Going to wait until I get 100 miles on the plugs and do another plug reading, to be certain that #3 cylinder is really lean.

Would an O2 sensor fix this?



[Edited on 16-5-2012 by huckmubb]

[Edited on 16-5-2012 by huckmubb]




93 Tercel. 3E-E stock block, crank, rod, pistons, with 5EFE Paseo 1st Gen Head, 0.019" stainless steel shim head gasket, 8.8:1 compression, IHI Turbocharger, model RHB5 VJ5 from Mazda GLX. 8 PSI boost. Supra 295cc Low Impedence yellow top ultra fast injectors, Home soldered Megasquirt I, Version 3.0 PCB stand alone fuel and spark management. Saab turbo spark module, stock Tercel coil, stock 5EFE distributor. 10mm stainless steel core silicone plug wires, 15" Montegi R116 wheels, Intercooled, Custom high flow 2 1/4" sink trap turbo manifold, custom 2 1/4" welded down pipe with separate wastegate pipe. 2 1/4" exhaust system with solid steel flowmaster muffler. Estimated 170HP at 6600 RPM. http://www.ritalie.com/tercel
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[*] posted on 16-5-2012 at 01:59 PM


Just tested fuel pressure. It's exactly 35 psi with no vacuum to the regulator, and around 24 psi with the vacuum line hooked to the regulator. Testing the pressure between the fuel rail and the fuel filter with a brand new VDO 0-100 PSI fuel pressure gauge. This can't be right?

Ok so I am back to edit this post, because I tried 2 more gauges, they both said 42 psi, which is exactly within spec, and I revved the engine, the fuel pressure didn't change at all, with the vacuum to the regulator disconnected.

Disconnected the O2 sensor, and it seemed to have no effect.

:dunno:

[Edited on 16-5-2012 by huckmubb]




93 Tercel. 3E-E stock block, crank, rod, pistons, with 5EFE Paseo 1st Gen Head, 0.019" stainless steel shim head gasket, 8.8:1 compression, IHI Turbocharger, model RHB5 VJ5 from Mazda GLX. 8 PSI boost. Supra 295cc Low Impedence yellow top ultra fast injectors, Home soldered Megasquirt I, Version 3.0 PCB stand alone fuel and spark management. Saab turbo spark module, stock Tercel coil, stock 5EFE distributor. 10mm stainless steel core silicone plug wires, 15" Montegi R116 wheels, Intercooled, Custom high flow 2 1/4" sink trap turbo manifold, custom 2 1/4" welded down pipe with separate wastegate pipe. 2 1/4" exhaust system with solid steel flowmaster muffler. Estimated 170HP at 6600 RPM. http://www.ritalie.com/tercel
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[*] posted on 16-5-2012 at 02:42 PM


Quote: Originally posted by 4agetercel  
a bad knock sensor

I was thinking this




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[*] posted on 20-5-2012 at 12:26 PM


Problem solved. I installed new NGK nickel plated, dual ground spark plugs. They are the factory original 5EFE 1995 Tercel spark plugs, the ones the car came with from the factory.

Previously I had platinum dual electrode spark plugs, with the recessed platinum coated center electrode. Then I tried Auto-lite standard plugs, and there was no change, the engine ran terrible. I finally went with a conventional, NGK, OEM style, non-platinum twin electrode plug.

Installed the new NGK plugs, pinging was instantly gone, no more rough running up hill, or jolting. Being a mechanic for most of my lifetime, I was extremely skeptical. I drove to Seattle, a 620 mile round trip in 2 days.

The engine didn't cut out or ping even one time, and it got 40.5 MPG on 92 octane fuel, HWY, going through the Cascade mountain range at 70-75mph, being out of overdrive for the long hills.

In Seattle it got 35.5 MPG in traffic jams, and city traffic, with some HWY/freeway driving mixed in.

Previously the car got 19-26 MPG in town, and 30-36mpg max on highway. Over a 1 1/2 year period I never recorded more than 36mpg, even on open flat highway and light throttle.

How can this be?

NOTE: I also disconnected the oxygen sensor, drove 5 miles, then shut of the engine, and reconnected the oxygen sensor. This made the engine check light go on for 400 miles, then it went off on it's own. The engine never did ping after this, and it recorded 40.5 MPG, which has never happened. I don't know if this has anything to do with it, maybe this reset the computer or fixed a computer glitch, so I just thought I would mention it for anyone coming across this thread. It might be worth trying. If you don't have the OEM NGK spark plugs, PUT THEM IN, and I was a skeptic before this.


To make this all the more strange... I live in WA state, we have 10% ethanol in ALL FUEL pumps by state law. My car has never been run on anything but 10% ethanol/gas mix. Has anyone got 40 mpg using 10% ethanol? I heard that you get a large 10-20% drop in fuel economy, especially on oxygen sensor equipped cars, because alcohol registers "lean" at the sensor.

[Edited on 20-5-2012 by huckmubb]




93 Tercel. 3E-E stock block, crank, rod, pistons, with 5EFE Paseo 1st Gen Head, 0.019" stainless steel shim head gasket, 8.8:1 compression, IHI Turbocharger, model RHB5 VJ5 from Mazda GLX. 8 PSI boost. Supra 295cc Low Impedence yellow top ultra fast injectors, Home soldered Megasquirt I, Version 3.0 PCB stand alone fuel and spark management. Saab turbo spark module, stock Tercel coil, stock 5EFE distributor. 10mm stainless steel core silicone plug wires, 15" Montegi R116 wheels, Intercooled, Custom high flow 2 1/4" sink trap turbo manifold, custom 2 1/4" welded down pipe with separate wastegate pipe. 2 1/4" exhaust system with solid steel flowmaster muffler. Estimated 170HP at 6600 RPM. http://www.ritalie.com/tercel
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[*] posted on 20-5-2012 at 01:10 PM


That is why i run nothing but ngk plugs in my car. Autolites are crap in my opinion. I get between 36-38 mpgs around the city and 41-50 with highway driving on just 87 octane. All the gas pumps near me are 10% ethanol as well.



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